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Was the Story of Jesus Taken from the Egyptians?


Was the Story of Jesus Taken from the Egyptians?

By H.O.O.D. - 07-07-2008, 04:56 PM - BX Hot Topics on Fire (most popular)


these videos say the story of jesus is copied from the egyptians worshipping the sun

and that the story of the virgin,3 kings,ressurection after 3 days, december 25th, performing miracles....have all been said to been done by many pagan gods thousands of years before jesus had said to ever existed...

watch them all....i didnt even kno that....even has some george carlin in there.

december 25th is all about the sun rising.


http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/


38 comments for "Was the Story of Jesus Taken from the Egyptians?"


 07-07-2008, 05:23 PM offline - #2
NYGiant
This video is very interesting but I don't believe it....I found a response on another forum that disputes this and other videos claims. This is not from me but is the other side to this arguement I haven't looked into it totally but people can look at both and then decide for themselves.

EDIT: this disputes the part about the story of Horus and Jesus being exactly alike, I will try and find stuff about other parts of the video.

Horus is nothing like Jesus. The only things they have in common are a miraculous birth (though Isis, Horus' mother, was not a virgin) and the ability to perform miracles (though Horus was never able to walk on water, raise the dead, or cast out demons).

I've studied Egyptian mythology on and off for twenty years. There is not ONE Egyptologist out there who endorses the Horus=Jesus theory....or at least, not any that I've found.

Edit: Here are some links (some ARE biased, but use impeccable sources):
...
...

...
....
...


...
...

...
...
...

You can also try doing what I did, and email some Egyptologists directly. I emailed Richard Wilkinson, professor of Egyptology at the University of Arizona, and received a very prompt reply. Here's a link that contains their email addresses:
...

Edit part 2: religioustolerance.org does NOT cite any Egyptologists for their section on Horus, nor do they cite any experts on Hinduism for the section on Krishna. For information on Krishna, see the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads. Don't fall prey to websites that fail to refer to scholars, and don't fall for things like Zeitgeist either. They did not use even ONE reputable scholar, and actually used people whose writings have been laughed at by real scholars.

Anyone can post anything on geocities. It is not a reputable source, either.

Edit 3: To the asker, sorry for the very long answer. There's a lot of information about this, though, and it makes me angry that so many people are so misinformed.

Horus' mother was named ISIS, not Meri, and not Isis-Meri. She was later combined with Hathor, who also was Horus' mother, but was also his wife, and in some versions of the myth, his sister. Try working THAT one out.

Horus did not have his birth announced by any star.

There is no indication from ancient Egyptian texts, engravings, or drawings that a "Herut" tried to have Horus k#lled.

Horus was NOT visited by "three kings" and neither was Jesus. "Wise men" are not the same as kings, and besides, the Bible doesn't number them.

Horus was not "baptized" by "Anup" or anyone else. Anup is another name for Anubis, who was not a "baptizer." He was an embalmer. I have not been able to find anything about Anubis being behe@ded.

Horus did not "raise" Osiris "from the dead." Isis "resurrected" him long enough so that he could father Horus. Afterwards, Osiris became "king of the underworld." Not the same as a resurrection, and Horus had nothing to do with it.

Horus was not crucified. In most of the myths about him, he didn't even die. Crucifixion did not exist and was not used in ancient Egypt.

KRST means "burial" and is not a title.

So again, where are the similarities? I had forgotten about royal lineage, so I guess that makes three similarities between Horus and Jesus (though Horus was more directly descended than Jesus was). Certainly not "forty." And no, it's not documented by ANY Egyptologist with real scholarly credentials. Only questionable "scholars" like Gerald Ma##ey and Acharya S expound theories like this.

But people will fall for it. It just goes to show that some people will believe ANYTHING, as long as it's what they want to believe.

* 1 month ago

Source(s):
Richard Wilkinson, Geraldine Pinch, Ph.D., Roger Lancelyn Green, Walter Otto, Manfred Clauss, Joseph Conrad, Encyclopedia Brittanica...et cetera et cetera

Last edited by NYGiant; 07-07-2008 at 05:24 PM..
 07-07-2008, 06:37 PM offline - #3
H.O.O.D.
Originally Posted by NYGiant
This video is very interesting but I don't believe it....I found a response on another forum that disputes this and other videos claims. This is not from me but is the other side to this arguement I haven't looked into it totally but people can look at both and then decide for themselves.

EDIT: this disputes the part about the story of Horus and Jesus being exactly alike, I will try and find stuff about other parts of the video.

Horus is nothing like Jesus. The only things they have in common are a miraculous birth (though Isis, Horus' mother, was not a virgin) and the ability to perform miracles (though Horus was never able to walk on water, raise the dead, or cast out demons).

I've studied Egyptian mythology on and off for twenty years. There is not ONE Egyptologist out there who endorses the Horus=Jesus theory....or at least, not any that I've found.

Edit: Here are some links (some ARE biased, but use impeccable sources):
...
...

...
....
...


...
...

...
...
...

You can also try doing what I did, and email some Egyptologists directly. I emailed Richard Wilkinson, professor of Egyptology at the University of Arizona, and received a very prompt reply. Here's a link that contains their email addresses:
...

Edit part 2: religioustolerance.org does NOT cite any Egyptologists for their section on Horus, nor do they cite any experts on Hinduism for the section on Krishna. For information on Krishna, see the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanishads. Don't fall prey to websites that fail to refer to scholars, and don't fall for things like Zeitgeist either. They did not use even ONE reputable scholar, and actually used people whose writings have been laughed at by real scholars.

Anyone can post anything on geocities. It is not a reputable source, either.

Edit 3: To the asker, sorry for the very long answer. There's a lot of information about this, though, and it makes me angry that so many people are so misinformed.

Horus' mother was named ISIS, not Meri, and not Isis-Meri. She was later combined with Hathor, who also was Horus' mother, but was also his wife, and in some versions of the myth, his sister. Try working THAT one out.

Horus did not have his birth announced by any star.

There is no indication from ancient Egyptian texts, engravings, or drawings that a "Herut" tried to have Horus k#lled.

Horus was NOT visited by "three kings" and neither was Jesus. "Wise men" are not the same as kings, and besides, the Bible doesn't number them.

Horus was not "baptized" by "Anup" or anyone else. Anup is another name for Anubis, who was not a "baptizer." He was an embalmer. I have not been able to find anything about Anubis being behe@ded.

Horus did not "raise" Osiris "from the dead." Isis "resurrected" him long enough so that he could father Horus. Afterwards, Osiris became "king of the underworld." Not the same as a resurrection, and Horus had nothing to do with it.

Horus was not crucified. In most of the myths about him, he didn't even die. Crucifixion did not exist and was not used in ancient Egypt.

KRST means "burial" and is not a title.

So again, where are the similarities? I had forgotten about royal lineage, so I guess that makes three similarities between Horus and Jesus (though Horus was more directly descended than Jesus was). Certainly not "forty." And no, it's not documented by ANY Egyptologist with real scholarly credentials. Only questionable "scholars" like Gerald Ma##ey and Acharya S expound theories like this.

But people will fall for it. It just goes to show that some people will believe ANYTHING, as long as it's what they want to believe.

* 1 month ago

Source(s):
Richard Wilkinson, Geraldine Pinch, Ph.D., Roger Lancelyn Green, Walter Otto, Manfred Clauss, Joseph Conrad, Encyclopedia Brittanica...et cetera et cetera

but they didnt dispute the fact that there is many "gods" that came before jesus that had all those similarities...

december 25th
virgin mother
3 kings
ressurection
perform miracles...

can they prove all those things are not true about all the other gods mentioned besides horus?

obviously these gods were made up and plagiarized each other
 07-07-2008, 06:53 PM offline - #4
NYGiant
Originally Posted by H.O.O.D.
but they didnt dispute the fact that there is many "gods" that came before jesus that had all those similarities...

december 25th
virgin mother
3 kings
ressurection
perform miracles...

can they prove all those things are not true about all the other gods mentioned besides horus?

obviously these gods were made up and plagiarized each other

Like I said before I haven't read up on it enough I will look into it and get back to you.
 07-07-2008, 07:09 PM offline - #5
NYGiant
here are some things I gathered from the first site I posted:

"Zeitgeist" on Horus

"By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." (1 John 4:6, Douay-Rheims)

Now I will respond to the transcript section of "Zeitgeist" that talks about Horus and Jesus. I have removed the transcript's references, although I will talk about the film's sources at the end. My own documentation, information, and sources are contained above, with a short bibliography at bottom.

From the transcript of in red.

This is Horus. He is the Sun God of Egypt of around 3000 BC.

Horus is not (simply) the sun god, although that became one of his forms. Horus in ancient Egypt was the falcon god whose name means the high, far-off, or distant one. Re (or Ra) was the sun god who came to be identified with the mid-day (or noon) sun. Horus was also the sky god, whose good or sound eye was the sun, and injured eye the moon.

He is the sun, anthropomorphized, and his life is a series of allegorical myths involving the sun's movement in the sky.

He is not the sun, but came to be identified with the position of the rising sun (the sun rises in the east), in such Greek forms as Harakhti = "Horus of the horizon"; and Harmachis (-khis) = "Horus in the horizon." Later he was a##ociated with the sun-god Re and known as Re-Harakhti. Atum was the god of the setting sun.

From the ancient hieroglyphics in Egypt, we know much about this solar messiah. For instance, Horus, being the sun, or the light, had an enemy known as Set and Set was the personification of the darkness or night.

It is hieroglyphs, not hieroglyphics. Hieroglyphic is an adjective (e.g. hieroglyphic writings). The term "messiah" comes from the Hebrew Moshiach for "Anointed One." It is a Judaeo-Christian concept; it does not go back to ancient Egypt. Set (or Seth) was Horus' brother, or in other versions, his uncle. In one tradition of the Egyptian myth, Seth was Horus' rival (and usurper of Egypt's throne), in others, his balance (a bipolar, balanced embodiment of kingship). As mentioned above: since the beginning of the 20th century in Egyptological research, much debate has ensued over whether the struggle between Horus and Seth was primarily historical/geo-political, or cosmic/symbolic. When the full Osiris complex became visible, Seth appears as the murker of Osiris and would-be k#ller of the child Horus.
Hierglyphs for Egyptian sun god Ra (Re), creator of the universe Ra (Re) was the sun god and creator of the universe
Hierglyphs for Egyptian god Osiris, king of the underworld (dead) Osiris was the king of the underworld (the dead), wife of Isis, and father of Horus
Hierglyphs for Egyptian goddess Isis (Aset), sister/wife of Osiris, mother of Horus Isis was the sister and wife of Osiris, and mother of Horus
Hierglyphs for Seth, brother and k#ller of Osiris, uncle/brother of Horus Seth was brother and k#ller of Osiris
Hierglyphs for the Egyptian Falcon-god Horus or Har, lord of the sky Horus, represented by the Falcon symbol, was the son of Osiris and Isis
Hierglyphs for Ra-Harakhti or Harakhti, "Horus of the two horizons" Ra-Harakhti (Re-Harakhti) or simply Harakhti is "Horus of the two horizons"
See Jim Loy's Egyptian Gods page for the Hierglyphs and names of all the major gods of Egypt.

And, metaphorically speaking, every morning Horus would win the battle against Set - while in the evening, Set would conquer Horus and send him into the underworld. It is important to note that "dark vs. light" or "good vs. evil" is one of the most ubiquitous mythological dualities ever known and is still expressed on many levels to this day.

Horus was never sent to the underworld. That was Osiris who was k#lled and became lord of the underworld (i.e. the dead), while Horus was king of the living. In one version of the myth, Horus battles with Seth over an 80 year period, the earth-god Geb in a judgment awards the whole inheritance of Egypt to Horus, and Horus then becomes ruler of Egypt. From then on, the dead Egyptian king becomes an "Osiris", and his successor the living king is a "Horus." That is the primary meaning of the Horus-Seth battle myth. In the Egyptian Coffin Texts (Spell 148, quoted above), Horus appears as a falcon who soars up into the sky beyond the flight of the original bird-soul, beyond the stars and all the divinities of olden time whose souls inhabit the constellations. In so doing he brings back light and the a##urance of a new day, thus subduing Seth, who personifies the terrors of darkness and [rip].

Broadly speaking, the story of Horus is as follows: Horus was born on December 25th

Wrong. The Persian/Roman god Mithras came to be seen as born on that date, as did Jesus later in the early Church. The December 25th date is not found in the Gospels or the New Testament. It was a later adoption by the Catholic Church: "In the first half of the fourth century AD the worship of the Sol Invictus was the last great pagan cult the Church had to conquer, and it did so in part with the est@blishment of Christmas...At the head of the Deposition Martyrum of the so-called Roman Chronograph of 354 AD (the Philocalian Calendar) there is listed the natus Christus in Betleem Judaeae ('the birth of Christ in Bethlehem of Judea') as being celebrated on December 25. The Deposition was originally composed in 336 AD, so Christmas dates back at least that far." (See "Santa or Satan: Reply to a Funny Fundy")

The date of the birth of Horus according to some online sources is during the Egyptian month of Khoiak (which corresponds to our November month). The Egyptian calendar had three seasons, each four months and 30 days/month. The season of Akhet is months (in Greek) Thot, Phaophi, Athyr, Khoiak; the season of Peret (or Winter) is months (in Greek) Tybi, Mekhir, Phamenoth, Pharmouthi; the season of Chemou (or Summer) is months (in Greek) Pakhon, Payni, Epiph, Mesorê. See online sources: Egyptian Festival Calender ; Egyptian calendar months and seasons ; Grand Festivals ; Festival Rituals. We also know where Horus was supposedly born (at Khemmis or Chemmis in the Nile Delta of northern Upper Egypt).

of the virgin Isis-Meri.

Wrong again. Her name was simply Isis (in Greek). Her true Egyptian name is transliterated simply A-s-e-t or 3st (all woman names in Egyptian end with the "t"). Her name (Aset) means "seat" or "throne" (Oxford Encyclopedia, vol 2, "Isis" p. 188) and "the goddess's name is written in hieroglyphs with a sign that represents a throne, indicating the crucial role that she plays in the transmission of the kingship of Egypt" (Hart, Routledge Dictionary, "Isis" p. 80).
 07-07-2008, 07:10 PM offline - #6
NYGiant
And she definitely was not a virgin when she conceived Horus with the revivified Osiris, if these words mean anything: "[Osiris was] revived enough to have an erection and impregnate his wife" (Lesko, p. 162); "After having se#ual intercourse..." (Dunand / Zivie-Coche, p. 39); "revivified the se#ual member of Osiris and became pregnant by him" (Richard Wilkinson, p. 146); "revive the se#ual powers of Osiris" (Pinch, p. 80).

A virgin birth, or more properly, a virginal conception, is by definition non-se#ual.

His birth was accompanied by a star in the east

No evidence any stars are mentioned in the birth of Horus.

which in turn, three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior

There are no "three kings" in the birth of Horus, and there are no "three kings" in the Bible either. Read Matthew 2 for yourself:

"Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying, 'Where is he that is born King of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.'" (Matthew 2:1-2 KJV)

They are not called "kings" but "wise men" -- and they are not three in number, we don't know how many there were. Three gifts are later mentioned (gold, frankincense, myrrh) in verse 11, and these were equated with the wise men. Perhaps we are thinking of the Christmas carol "We three kings of Orient are...." ? Nice tune and lyrics, but it's always best to cross-check with the biblical text.

At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher

There is a form known as "Horus the Child" but he wasn't a prodigal teacher. He was kept hidden away by his mother, until he was ready to be ruler of Egypt. The young god was hidden in the papyrus marshes, hence his epithet Har-hery-wadj or "Horus who is upon his papyrus plants."

and at the age of 30 he was baptized by a figure known as Anup and thus began his ministry

No evidence of any baptism for Horus, and no evidence of any "ministry" of Horus. Anubis (or Anup or Anpu) means Royal Child, and is usually depicted as jackal-headed or a wild dog-headed man, or a reclining black jackal. Anubis was the great protector god, guiding the soul through the underworld. He was also the Lord of embalming, and through this is connected with incense and perfumery. No baptism here. (See The Jackal Headed God or Egyptian Animal Gods).

Horus had 12 disciples he traveled about with

Horus had NO 12 disciples he traveled with: remember he became ruler of Egypt after a long battle with Seth. Perhaps you could call all the subjects in Egypt his "disciples" (which means followers).

There were technically the "Followers of Horus [son of Isis]" called the Shemsu Heru, mentioned in the Liturgy of Funeral Offerings and purification ceremony. These were a group of beings who were closely connected with Osiris, and having "followed" him in this world they pa##ed after him into the Other World (of the dead), where they became his ministrants and messengers. There were also followers (a different group) of Horus the Elder called the Mesentiu who are "workers in metal" or blacksmiths (see The Liturgy of Funeral Offerings, the fourth ceremony, commentary by Budge).

performing miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water

There are some healing "miracles" or magic a##ociated with Horus, but this is with Horus the Child, not Horus the Elder or his adult forms. In the Late Dynastic cippi objects, Harpokrates (Horus-the-child) acts as an amuletic force warding off dangerous creatures such as crocodiles, serpents, and other noxious animals, etc. "Horus-on-the-Crocodiles" was a common manifestation of the importance of Horus in healing ritual. The healing of Horus from scorpian stings by Isis provided the reason for the production of the cippi of Horus and his role in healing. The power of this healing seems to come from his mother, Isis, who was indeed the "goddess of immense magical power" (Hart, Routledge Dictionary, "Isis" p. 79ff).

Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God's Annointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, and many others

Wrong, no evidence for these names. The "forms" of the Horus-god are precisely what I listed above, under these categories: Horus the Child (healing / magical titles such as "Horus-on-the-Crocodiles"); Horus as son of Isis and Osiris ("pillar of his mother"; "savior of his father"); and Horus as a sun-god ("lord of the sky"; god "of the east"; Horus of / in "the horizon"; and later a##ociated with Re).

After being betrayed by Typhon, Horus was crucified, buried for 3 days, and thus, resurrected.

Typhon is also known as Seth, his rival brother (or uncle). Horus was NOT crucified, was NOT buried for 3 days, and thus, was NOT resurrected. Your sources are wrong. In some versions of his battle with Seth, Horus had one or both of his eyes injured, but he was not k#lled. It was his father Osiris who was k#lled, dismembered, reconstituted, and revived by Isis, his magical mother.

These attributes of Horus, whether original or not, seem to permeate in many cultures of the world, for many other gods are found to have the same general mythological structure

No, they do not. They are unique to Jesus Christ (crucifixion, burial, bodily resurrection). I have demolished these claims in my long, detailed, documented article "Evidence for Jesus and Parallel Pagan 'Crucified Saviors' Examined."

Attis of Phyrigia, born of the virgin Nana on December 25th, crucified, placed in a tomb and after 3 days, was resurrected.

Wrong. See my section on Attis for the facts.

Krishna of India, born of the virgin Devaki with a star in the east signaling his coming, performed miracles with his disciples, and upon his [rip] was resurrected.

There is some magic and a resurrection/ascension a##ociated with Krishna. Otherwise, wrong.
 07-07-2008, 07:14 PM offline - #7
NYGiant
Dionysus of Greece, born of a virgin on December 25th, was a traveling teacher who performed miracles such as turning water into wine, he was referred to as the "King of Kings," "God's Only Begotten Son," "The Alpha and Omega," and many others, and upon his [rip], he was resurrected.

Again, wrong. See my section on Dionysos for the facts.

Mithra of Persia, born of a virgin on December 25th, he had 12 disciples and performed miracles, and upon his [rip] was buried for 3 days and thus resurrected, he was also referred to as "The Truth," "The Light," and many others. Interestingly, the sacred day of worship of Mithra was Sunday.

Wrong. See my section on Mithras for the facts.

The fact of the matter is there are numerous saviors, from different periods, from all over the world, which subscribe to these general characteristics.

The fact of the matter is, your "sources" are lying to you. Get some better sources. Go to a university library. Do some research. It's not really that hard.

The question remains: why these attributes, why the virgin birth on December 25th, why dead for three days and the inevitable resurrection, why 12 disciples or followers?

No questions remain. These are unique to Jesus Christ. See my article, especially the last section "Christianity vs. Pagan 'Mystery' Religions."

Furthermore, the character of Jesus, a literary and astrological hybrid, is most explicitly a plagiarization of the Egyptian Sun-god Horus.

Totally wrong and demolished above. We'll get to some of the "astrology" material below.

For example, inscribed about 3500 years, on the walls of the Temple of Luxor in Egypt are images of the enunciation, the immaculate conception, the birth, and the adoration of Horus. The images begin with Thaw announcing to the virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus, then Nef the holy ghost impregnating the virgin, and then the virgin birth and the adoration. This is exactly the story of Jesus' miracle conception.

The "enunciation" should be the "Annunciation" (March 25 is the feast day in Catholic liturgical calendars), and "immaculate conception" refers to the Catholic teaching about Mary's conception without Original Sin (December 8 is the feast day), not to a virginal conception. Just to be clear: Mary's own conception and birth from her mother was normal in the biological sense; it was Jesus who was virginally conceived and virgin born (Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38).

Luxor birth inscription of King Amunothph III

Skeptic and historian Richard Carrier makes a couple points about the Egyptian Luxor birth inscription which I will summarize:

* the Luxor inscription does not depict impregnation by a spirit, but involves very real se#
* the woman involved is not Isis (e.g. Horus' mother) but the mythical Queen of Egypt in an archetypal sense
* Panel 4: (often cited as key) describes the god Amun jumping into bed with the human Queen on her wedding night
* Amun's buddy Thoth stands by the bed to watch, and after Amun "does everything he wished with her" she and Amun engage in some divine pillow talk
* Amun tells her that she is impregnated and will bear his son, Amenophis (or "Amun is loved [or satisfied]")
* Amun, not Thoth, announces the conception; and Kneph only forms the fetus and the soul and unites them, he does not impregnate the Queen
* Panel 8: the ankh touched to the Queen's nose, does not depict an impregnation since she is already pregnant and "showing"
* Rather, it is the birth that is announced, not the conception; Kneph proceeds to impart the god's soul into the divine fetus using the ankh
* Panel 9: depicts the birth
* the adoration scene only involves important state officials (or perhaps lesser divinities), not kings or "magi"
* the cycle depicted at Luxor does not match up in the same sequence with the Christian narrative: the annunciation follows the conception in the Egyptian cycle (but in the same panel)
* the actual Luxor sequence is conception and annunciation in panel 4, gestation and quickening in panel 8 (also a second speech of a##urance), birth in panel 9, and then in panels 9 onward an adoration, and a confirmation
* this type of sequence is found throughout Greek and Roman mythology, so Christians need not have gotten the idea from Egypt

In fact, the literary similarities between the Egyptian religion and the Christian religion are staggering.

They are not, since there are virtually NO similarities. An atheist blogger (Consigliere) concludes in his analysis "Ending the Myth of Horus" :

"....I find the comparison between Horus and Jesus to consist of the following: they were of royal descent, they allegedly worked miracles and there were murk plots against them."

I concur with these, although the healing miracles are a##ociated with Horus-the-Child. Horus was (like Jesus) a "son of God" since he was son of Isis and Osiris, and he was (like Jesus) a lord and a king, as Jesus was "King of Kings" and "Lord of Lords" (book of Revelation).
 07-07-2008, 07:15 PM offline - #8
NYGiant
Zeitgeist's Bogus Sources

The "sources" used for Zeitgeist are outdated, unreliable, non-academic, non-scholarly, speculative, and/or conspiracy-laden tomes written by folks who are not trained in biblical scholarship, historical Jesus studies, Egyptology, or related fields, and/or rely on other non-scholarly, outdated, pseudo-historical books, and are therefore filled with errors:

* Acharya S, Suns of God and The Christ Conspiracy;
* Gerald Ma##ey, The Historical Jesus and Mythical Christ (orig c. 1900) and Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World (orig 1907)
* Thomas Doane, Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions (orig 1882)
* James Frazer, The Golden Bough (1st ed 1890; 2nd ed 1900; 3rd ed in 12 volumes, 1906-1915)
* Freke and Gandy, The Jesus Mysteries

Another two that were left out but argue along the same lines are Kersey Graves, The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors (orig 1875) and Tom Harpur, The Pagan Christ (2004). John Jackson's Christianity Before Christ (1985) was also used, but he simply copies and quotes Ma##ey, Kuhn, Churchward, Graves, and other pseudo-scholarship.

Speaking of Tom Harpur's book -- which makes very similar claims to the "Zeitgeist" movie -- see the critical article published online at George Mason Univ's History News Network [also available at CanadianChristianity.com] titled "The Leading Religion Writer in Canada ... Does He Know What He's Talking About?" by W. Ward Gasque 8/9/2004 --

"According to Harpur, there is no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth ever lived. He claims that virtually all of the details of the life and teachings of Jesus have their counterpart in Egyptian religious ideas. He does not quote any contemporary Egyptologist or recognized academic authority on world religions nor appeal to any of the standard reference books in Egyptology or to any primary sources. Rather, he is entirely dependent on the work of [Alvin Boyd] Kuhn [1880-1963] (and [Godfrey] Higgins [1771-1834] & [Gerald] Ma##ey [1828-1907])."

Gasque sent an email to "twenty leading Egyptologists -- in Canada, USA, UK, Australia, Germany, and Austria" in order to examine the following claims:

* That the name of Jesus was derived from the Egyptian “Iusa,” which means "the coming divine Son who heals or saves"
* That the god Horus is "an Egyptian Christos, or Christ....He and his mother, Isis, were the forerunners of the Christian Madonna and Child, and together they constituted a leading image in Egyptian religion for millennia prior to the Gospels."
* That Horus also "had a virgin birth, and that in one of his roles, he was 'a fisher of men with twelve followers.' "
* That "the letters KRST appear on Egyptian mummy coffins many centuries BCE, and....this word, when the vowels are filled in, is really Karast or Krist, signifying Christ."
* That the doctrine of the incarnation "is in fact the oldest, most universal mythos known to religion. It was current in the Osirian religion in Egypt at least four thousand years BCE."

What Gasque found in response is the following, also put in bullet points:

* Professor Kenneth A. Kitchen of the University of Liverpool pointed out that not one of these men (Kuhn, Higgins, or Ma##ey) is mentioned in M. L. Bierbrier's Who Was Who in Egyptology (3rd ed, 1995), nor is any of their works listed in Ida B. Pratt's very extensive bibliography on Ancient Egypt.
* Only one of the ten experts who responded to my questions had ever heard of Kuhn, Higgins or Ma##ey.
* The responding scholars were unanimous in dismissing the suggested etymologies for Jesus and Christ.
* Ron Leprohan, Professor of Egyptology at the University of Toronto, pointed out that while "sa" means "son" in ancient Egyptian and "iu" means "to come," but Kuhn / Harpur have the syntax all wrong.
* In any event, the name "Iusa" simply does not exist in Egyptian. The name "Jesus" is Greek from a universally recognized west Semitic name (“Jeshu’a”), borne not merely by the central figure in the New Testament but also by many other people in the first century.
* There is no evidence for the idea that Horus was virgin born.
* There is no evidence for the idea that Horus was "a fisher of men" or that his followers (the King’s officials were called "Followers of Horus") were ever twelve in number.
* KRST is the word for "burial" ("coffin" is written "KRSW"), but there is no evidence whatsoever to link this with the Greek title "Christos" or Hebrew "Mashiah."
* There is no mention of Osiris in Egyptian texts until about 2350 BC, so Harpur’s reference to the origins of Osirian religion is off by more than a millennium and a half.
* Elsewhere Harpur refers to "Jesus in Egyptian lore as early as 18,000 BCE" and he quotes Kuhn as claiming that "the Jesus who stands as the founder of Christianity was at least 10,000 years of age." In fact, the earliest extant writing that we have dates from about 3200 BCE.
* Kuhn / Harper’s redefinition of "incarnation" and rooting this in Egyptian religion is regarded as bogus by all of the Egyptologists with whom I have consulted.
* According to one: "Only the pharaoh was believed to have a divine aspect, the divine power of kingship, incarnated in the human being currently serving as the king. No other Egyptians ever believed they possessed even 'a little bit of the divine'."
* Virtually none of the alleged evidence for the views put forward in The Pagan Christ is documented by reference to original sources; the notes refer mainly to Kuhn, Higgins, Ma##ey, or some other long-out-of-date work.

W. Ward Gasque holds a Ph.D. from Manchester University (UK). A graduate of Harvard University’s Institute for Educational Leadership (1993), he is President of the Pacific a##ociation for Theological Studies.

Evangelical biblical scholar Ben Witherington in a critique of the "Zeitgeist" movie writes on the sources used by the filmmakers:

"What do we notice about this list of sources? Not a single one of these authors and sources are experts in the Bible, Biblical history, the Ancient Near East, Egyptology, or any of the cognate fields. Many of these sources are quite old, and the arguments they present have long since been shown to be weak....The point of my listing these sources is that they are not reliable sources of information about the origins of Christianity, Judaism, or much of anything else of relevance to this discussion." (Ben Witherington, from The Zeitgeist of the 'Zeitgeist Movie')
 07-07-2008, 07:16 PM offline - #9
NYGiant
All of the info in my last few posts was from the first site in the list I gave, it has links on the actual page to other sources of the same nature. As I said before it's good to give both sides of the arguement and let people decide for themselves.
 07-07-2008, 07:23 PM offline - #10
H.O.O.D.
very interesting....

what do u believe giant?

bad sources? or they made it up...or loosly connected it.
 07-07-2008, 07:34 PM offline - #11
NYGiant
I was raised Catholic, but don't consider myself any certain form of Christianity. I believe in God, and I believe that he sent his son Jesus Christ to earth to die for our sins. Many people would call me and like minded individuals stupid, but it's what I believe. I don't know if you have seen all of Zeigeist, but it's main theme is that it exposes the Illuminati or the New World Order as most people call it. And IMHO I think Zeigeist does a pretty good job of that, but it also attempts to do something that is considered a goal for the NWO, and that is to dismantle Christianity. So if you ask me I think it's disinformation covered with a layer of truth. Most people who read this will say I am biased because I am Christian, but I really don't give a !!.

I don't normally talk about religion or God like this but I am in a preachy mood this evening.
 07-08-2008, 08:03 AM offline - #12
God
ok check it, i was taken a !! one day and i had me a notebook and a pen , and i wrote a short story (i was really really really !!ed up ), i seen a spider and i jumped and threw my notebook at the spider and ran, someone found that !! and took my super hero story and turned it into the bible . in my story jesus was kung fu panda though.

Last edited by God; 07-08-2008 at 08:04 AM..
 07-08-2008, 12:42 PM offline - #13
coolwhip
i haven't watched none of the video's reason being avoid stuff like that where is the proof in the pudding yes there possibly r many gods that are pegan do u not know when the devil was kicked out of heaven a 10th of the angels went with him cause of there plot for the crown. jesus is the word of GOD when GOD spoke he spoke jesus. example : JOHNS 1:1 "IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD". follow me now cause if this was some tupac [rip] theory ya'll would. GENESIS 1:3 SAYS "AND GOD SAID LET THERE BE LIGHT AND THE WAS LIGHT". he wasn't talking about the sun cause the sun wasn't made until versus 5 so jesus been around longer than these gods u speak of. let me take u some where come on follow me. if jesus was fake why has it lasted so long every lie comes to an end they never last long trust me y do they try to silence people about it just like the bible said they would why have many people come in jesus name protraying to be him like the bible said they would. i never heard of this guy u speak of but trust me they are the ones copying jesus not jesus copying them sorry brotha stop looking for away out of what is u live in sin u will pay u live rightous in christ u will be rewarded GODBLESS U ALL.
 07-08-2008, 01:13 PM offline - #14
gotocollege
i understand all of those who believe, i used to be very religious. But I cant wrap my mind around this one, 33% of the world is christian (alot of them were forced to convert but thats another conversation), and john 3:16 is self explanatory. Does that mean that the other 67% (1.5 billion muslims, 900 million Hindus, 367 million BBuddhists) all go to hell? What makes jesus the way to salvation and Mohammad not? why did jesus only come to one small area of the world? why does every corner of the world have its own unique religious culture?

I believe there could be a higher power, but facts seem to point to organized religion being a product of culture, invented by those afraid to die/those trying to control others. I fear [rip], but i don't know if there is anything after it, and i don't need a religion to tell me whats right and wrong, morality can be worked through with reason and philosophy
 07-08-2008, 03:17 PM offline - #15
NYGiant
Originally Posted by gotocollege
i understand all of those who believe, i used to be very religious. But I cant wrap my mind around this one, 33% of the world is christian (alot of them were forced to convert but thats another conversation), and john 3:16 is self explanatory. Does that mean that the other 67% (1.5 billion muslims, 900 million Hindus, 367 million BBuddhists) all go to hell? What makes jesus the way to salvation and Mohammad not? why did jesus only come to one small area of the world? why does every corner of the world have its own unique religious culture?

I believe there could be a higher power, but facts seem to point to organized religion being a product of culture, invented by those afraid to die/those trying to control others. I fear [rip], but i don't know if there is anything after it, and i don't need a religion to tell me whats right and wrong, morality can be worked through with reason and philosophy

Just to answer your question about non-christians going to hell....IMO if you are a good person but don't believe in jesus I don't think it means you automatically go to hell, and thats one of the ideas I struggled with growing up Catholic is that I was always told "It doesn't matter how good you are if you don't believe in Jesus you go to hell", but it never really made sense to me. And it's one of the reasons I don't consider myself a specific form of Christian because most of them have this philosophy.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that even if there was nothing after we die it wouldn't bother me cuz I wouldn't feel anything. So that's not why I believe in a higher power, although I know there are some people who only believe because they are afraid to die.

Last edited by NYGiant; 07-08-2008 at 03:19 PM..
 07-08-2008, 06:07 PM offline - #16
gotocollege
Originally Posted by NYGiant
Just to answer your question about non-christians going to hell....IMO if you are a good person but don't believe in jesus I don't think it means you automatically go to hell, and thats one of the ideas I struggled with growing up Catholic is that I was always told "It doesn't matter how good you are if you don't believe in Jesus you go to hell", but it never really made sense to me. And it's one of the reasons I don't consider myself a specific form of Christian because most of them have this philosophy.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that even if there was nothing after we die it wouldn't bother me cuz I wouldn't feel anything. So that's not why I believe in a higher power, although I know there are some people who only believe because they are afraid to die.

very intelligent response, makes sense
 07-08-2008, 11:09 PM offline - #17
kingcrump
Good thread. I actually read a book on Dionysus and Jesus (among others) some years back, it's called "The Jesus Mysteries". It points to some similarities in the story of Jesus and Dionysus, and a couple other things. It also talked about some of the things in the Quran seeming like they would be in the bible and vice versa.
 07-09-2008, 04:17 PM offline - #18
NYGiant
Originally Posted by kingcrump
Good thread. I actually read a book on Dionysus and Jesus (among others) some years back, it's called "The Jesus Mysteries". It points to some similarities in the story of Jesus and Dionysus, and a couple other things. It also talked about some of the things in the Quran seeming like they would be in the bible and vice versa.


When Muhammed (I know I spelled it wrong) wrote the Quran he used the Bible both Old and New Testament as references......in fact Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Quran, and I find that funny cuz most Christians don't know that.
 07-22-2008, 08:30 AM offline - #19
DominicanCapo
simply put. no religion is absolute. for all actual bible lovers, readers, interpreters, etc... lets take it to the Tower of Babel. if the christian ideal of god is correct, then he would have divided the human race by giving them different characteristics, languages, and religions. realize that while all races have different beliefs we may find them strange but that does not make them any less true. you cannot fault somebody for their religious beliefs because we were all brought up in different things because of the "Tower of Babel" story. so as long as you believe in some kind of supreme diety, why cant you go to heaven?? why must there be persecution and disagreements??
 07-23-2008, 12:53 PM offline - #20
O Sigh Ruz
Originally Posted by NYGiant
Just to answer your question about non-christians going to hell....IMO if you are a good person but don't believe in jesus I don't think it means you automatically go to hell, and thats one of the ideas I struggled with growing up Catholic is that I was always told "It doesn't matter how good you are if you don't believe in Jesus you go to hell", but it never really made sense to me. And it's one of the reasons I don't consider myself a specific form of Christian because most of them have this philosophy.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that even if there was nothing after we die it wouldn't bother me cuz I wouldn't feel anything. So that's not why I believe in a higher power, although I know there are some people who only believe because they are afraid to die.

Thats pascals wager, and its a cop out.

Heres what 2 philosophers said about what you just wrote.

"And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence."
- Bertrand Russell

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
- Thomas Jefferson
 
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